Curse

D H U U U M · Nov 07, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

what about for every 2 rank in Mysticism u have +1 to your attack skills

silavor · Nov 07, 2010, 01:01 PM // 13:01

That only ends up giving you +6 (maybe +7 if you round up) damage per attack skill, while strength and critical strikes continue to give warriors and assassins the upper hand due to increasing the damage of all of their attacks.

Plus it doesn't help the dervish's energy issues at all, so a dervish won't even be able to take full advantage of the + damage from mysticism unless it's running a very specific zealous vow build to counter-act its lack of energy.

starzandstripes · Nov 07, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I'm sure this isn't going to be the most popular response on this forum and people may pick it apart, but it works for me so I thought I would share it. I have noticed I have great difficulty with some missions in pve with the dervish. What I did that works for me, and I've been doing with a few other characters, is that I have my dervish with literally two totally different set of skills. Here's what I mean.

When I play my dervish I set it up with one of a few different dervish builds I have. When I stumble and realize I can't complete the mission with a dervish, (some master missions, and some of the harder ones) I switch all of my dervish skills to a ritualist, my secondary, and play as a totally different character class. I have found that certain missions play better when I fight in the back as opposed in the front as a dervish. By doing this, it gives me options to complete missions I struggle with yet keep my dervish character and move on.

By doing this, I have completed every mission with my dervish character. I understand some people may frown upon this and I certainly could see their arguments, but it works for me. In the end its just a game and you have to do what works for you. I play primarily solo with my heroes and henchmen since I have had bad luck playing with others. (ie people leaving in the middle of a mission, incompetent players ect.) With some of my other characters I apply the same principal, my secondary acts as a way to switch the class of my character.

reaper with no name · Nov 08, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by silavor

That only ends up giving you +6 (maybe +7 if you round up) damage per attack skill, while strength and critical strikes continue to give warriors and assassins the upper hand due to increasing the damage of all of their attacks.

Plus it doesn't help the dervish's energy issues at all, so a dervish won't even be able to take full advantage of the + damage from mysticism unless it's running a very specific zealous vow build to counter-act its lack of energy.

You are correct in your overall argument, however, I feel it is worth noting that Strength does not affect autoattacks.

Granamyr · Nov 09, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

The class needs a defined role and I think there were some great suggestions that give it that.....hopefully a role that doesn't currently exist. I'm fine with them updating the Dervish to be competitive in AoE melee but even then, that's pigeon-holing them the same way the Paragon is currently played.

Look at Rits, they have SoS, DWG, a couple Restoration builds and even some decent non SoS supportive spirits.

Assassins have builds for every weapon, Assassin's Promise builds galore, tanking builds, farming builds, the list goes on and on

Paragons have one build: Imbagon....there are probably other effective ones but not enough so that they've made an impact on the community. The Dervish doesn't even have that 1 accepted build that they do the best. I'd love them to become the supportive class that the Paragon was meant to be but that support needs to be passive and not something where the Dervish has to actively change thought process from damage to support. Focusing on enemy bars and teammates' health bars is much too counter-intuitive.

reaper with no name · Nov 10, 2010, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Restoration builds in PvE are generally about as useful as the dervish is: suboptimal, but it will work.

It all comes down to the two big D's of GW: Damage and Defense. To summarize some of the examples you brought up and why they are useful:

SoS provides lots of ranged single target damage and a form of defense that is difficult to mathematically quantify or replicate in other builds (since you can't really predict for sure if the monsters will attack them or whatnot; more variables involved than a simple PS or SY).

Dagger builds provide unrivaled melee single target damage, with some melee AoE thrown in (honestly, it shouldn't have the most single target damage AND AoE too, but oh well).

Scythes provide a middle ground between single target melee (daggers) and AoE melee (100B) better than any other type of build.

I don't think I need to explain why SF is good.

Imbagon provides party-wide defensive increases and ranged physical single target damage.

Are you seeing the pattern here? Each of these builds provides some combination of offense and defense that no other build can provide. Since certain builds are able to perform multiple such roles at a time means less possible "good" builds (the fact that DB provides more single target and AoE damage than any other dagger attack, for example, limits the number of potential "good" dagger builds for the class by half, because you don't have to choose between single target or AoE). And since those builds are disproportionately concentrated in classes like the warrior, necromancer, and ritualist, classes such as the dervish, paragon, and ranger suffer.

Indeed, the only ranger builds I've seen in PvE that couldn't be done better by some other class were all /W (barrage+SY) or /P (barrage+shouts). And before someone mentions it, Rits are better at splinter barrage.

This is the problem the dervish faces. It's not as simple as finding a role; it's about finding that magic balance of damage and defense that no one else can pull off.

Terek Zelta · Nov 13, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

That's an excellent point. Here are some things I've noticed about warriors and paragons that's relevant to the idea of balanced D+D.

My warrior with Hundred Blades can literally make enemies explode in a single attack. While he's doing this, he can also maintain SY. My warrior is the back bone of every party I'm in because of his insane PBAoE and party defense. But there's a downside to this: Hundred Blades is nothing - literally nothing - without the right support. Without Mark of Pain at least, Hundred Blades is completely useless later on, and ideally, you need Barbs, Mark of Pain, Strength of Honor, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, a decent amount of prots and heals to keep you alive, and probably more. In short: in order for the warrior to be a real damage dealing machine, he needs to be supported by at least 2-3 other party members.

With Dragon Slash, my warrior can actually function on his own. Dragon Slash has reasonable DPS and great party defense with SY. Warriors are better at KDs than any other class, and Dragon Slash takes advantage of this with Brawling Headbutt. On its own, Dragon Slash is actually not very good DPS, but with Brawling Headbutt, a warrior can keep an enemy knocklocked while doing 60-70 damage per hit on his own, preventing the enemy from retaliating and/or healing itself. But between a lack of AoE damage (even with WWA), Flail's snaring effect, Enraging Charge's 20 second recharge time, SY's mechanic, and For Great Justice's short duration and long recharge time, my warrior's power is limited.

Imbagon works similarly. SY, TNtF, and EBSoH mean nothing on their own - the imbagon requires some kind of team synergy to work. Even though they can function on their own in PuGs, they really shine with Orders and physical-heavy teams.

My point is that the above three builds are balanced, because they're not one-man armies, but they still provide powerful damage and buffs at the same time.

Dervish needs something like that too. Give it a build that lets it function on its own, maybe with some AoE damage or party support, and give it a build that makes it feel really powerful in melee with the right team.

So I completely get what you're saying, Reaper, and I agree.